Friday, May 3, 2024

Death Battle Predictions: Naoya Zenin vs Undyne

(hade)

(TheDerpyPotato)

"Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man’s character, give him power." ― Abraham Lincoln

Naoya, Jujutsu Kaisen's misogyny curse, and the true heir of the Zenin clan.

Undyne, the Undying leader of Undertale's Royal Guard.


Forming a military is the natural human solution to fight against the cold of conflicts, and for such an objective, only a combat team could be formed to accomplish it. However, the real thing that matters is the leader; A selfless hero willing to sacrifice themself to save their group, or just a selfish asshole who would leave you in the dirt to save their own skin? When it comes to these two possibilties, you'd bet that those two are one of those examples who come to mind -- but between those two in a fight, would Undyne finally purge the world of the Curse of the Zenin Clan? or will its true heir crush her with his overwhelming intensity? But no matter how it goes, the only way to decide this is in a DEATH BATTLE!

Background

Naoya

Jujutsu Kaisen! A world filled with dangerous Curses who ravage society, fueled by the negative emotions that people hide deep beneath their souls. To combat, especially gifted people born with Cursed Energy, a form of energy that Curses themselves are made out of, are tasked with combating these beasts and protecting the wider populus from their wrath.


Now, you’d expect these individuals to use their powers for good reasons. With great power comes great responsibility and all that jazz. But of course not! You think the world is sunshine and rainbows? Being a member of society whose naturally gifted, being able to do things mere simpletons could only DREAM of, it builds an ego. And nowhere is that better shown than the heir to the Zenin Clan… Naoya Zenin!


Born and raised in a world where strength determines your value, Naoya was always strong at a young age and was a master at his abilities. Never having to train for his status, Naoya was naturally meant to be the heir to the Zenin Clan. The Zenin Clan is a highly prestigious group of Jujutsu Sorcerers who are an expert in being insanely abusive and highly corrupt! Naoya, being the cut above the rest that he was, grew a massive ego complex, and the primary victim of his assholery was one of the few in the Zenin Clan who were not born gifted; Maki Zenin.


Maki and Naoya were polar opposites. Maki was a quiet, collected, and reserved person who lacked supernatural abilities and was forced to fight and work her way up the world to prove her worth. Naoya, in contrast, was a loudmouthed dickhead, thinking purely selfishly and always driving to push his own ends. He always looked down on others, praising himself and thinking he deserved to have the power of the whole world at his knees.


This spiteful rivalry that lasted decades would end in a breaking point, with Maki finally awakening herself to slaughter the very family who abused her growing up. But, there was a lone survivor, and that survivor was of course Naoya.


However, Naoya would return as a Cursed Womb, becoming a monster in his own right and out for revenge against the girl who he looked down upon his entire life. He could not accept that someone like her could be a challenge to him, to the point of almost KILLING him. He would not only fight Maki to the death, but all of her allies as well. It was a close fight, and Naoya almost won, but he fell once again as his overconfidence got the better of him one last time.


Naoya would die alone, at the hands of the person he despised. With no friends, no family, nothing to live for, except for the belief that he was the best being in the world, and that the world should be based on the belief that the strong rule over the weak. Naoya’s selfish nature and lack of consideration for those around him was his downfall, and Maki stood triumphantly over the person she finally managed to prove that she can be better than him…

Undyne

Years ago, a war had happened between humans and monsters, which ended with humans using magic to trap all the monsters in a mountain, covering them with a barrier that only seven human souls can break. During this period, a human child had fallen down and met the prince of the underground. They became great friends with one another. However the child had gained an illness and died, and since human souls come out of their body upon death, the prince had absorbed the soul, crossed the barrier and put the child’s body on a pile of flowers.


Despite the actions of the monster price, humans had thought that the prince had killed the child, and attacked the prince as a result, killing him. Ever since, the King had declared that every human that had fallen down would be killed by him. The King’s goal was to get seven souls so then he can eventually not only get revenge on the humans for what they had done to his son, but free the entire underground from the barrier the humans had placed on them.


In order to follow alongside this goal, the Royal Guard had been created. They were made to keep an eye out for humans and capture any that were caught in the underground. This is where our fish monster Undyne comes into the equation. Undyne was always a hot headed kid, wanting to be strong and challenging any monster that she had seen. She had met the king and challenged him, to where she couldn’t touch him once. The king, whose name was Asgore, offered to teach her how to beat him. She kept training until she had eventually knocked Asgore down, to which Asgore was delighted to see his pupil make progress like that. Eventually, Undyne had become the leader of the Royal Guards, having a decent amount of people patrolling certain areas up to the ruins. 


Undyne had made two major friends. The first one was Dr.Alphys, who she had met in the garbage dump. They became great friends, with Alphys showing her knowledge to Undyne of anime and swords, and Undyne motivating Alphys to care more about herself. She also meets a skeleton named Papyrus, who really wanted to be in the Royal Guard, which she would take under her arm. With the intention to empower King Asgore with the last human soul, held by the mysterious human who fell down Mt. Ebott, she challenges the human and attempts to take them down as to free monsterkind from the Barrier.


Abilities

Naoya

Cursed Energy

Cursed Energy is an energy source within Jujutsu Kaisen that all jujutsu sorcerers can use and control. It acts like a different version of electricity with mass. It’s fueled by the emotions of the user, and a user’s emotions can be turned into Cursed Energy. It can subconsciously protect the soul despite not naturally doing so. Cursed Energy possibly can manipulate the brains of humans. It can also create barriers for attacking and defending. High amounts of Cursed Energy can allow the user to essentially ignore or null side effects or dangerous techniques through raw energy output.


With Cursed Energy, users can use…

Cursed Techniques

Cursed Techniques are essentially Cursed Energy refined into power, acting as an electronic to Cursed Energy being electricity. Cursed Techniques allow the user to reinforce their Cursed Energy to protect their bodies; including their internals, to the point of sacrificing limbs entirely to protect the rest of their body.

Projection Sorcery

Projection Sorcery is Naoya’s Cursed Technique inherited from his father, Naobito Zen’in. It traces movement at twenty-four frames per second, allowing Naoya to trace a predetermined set of movements into those twenty-four frames and execute them in that single second, when active, anything touched by his palm must also abide by the 24 FPS rule while moving. Failure to do so results in the subject getting immobilised and frozen in an animation frame for one second, leaving anything caught in the frame vulnerable to attack, users like Naobito can move so fast that they completely perception blitz Grade 1 Sorcerers like Nanami, and Heavenly Restricted people like Maki.

Domain Expansion

Domain Expansion is a Cursed Technique that allows users to create a personal domain for themselves. It allows the user’s Cursed Technique to always land. The user can make the domain externally smaller which presumably makes it stronger. Those without Cursed Energy are considered objects within the domain, unless the domain uses actual buildings or otherwise structures as the external barrier. Domains are weaker on the outside as they are designed to trap opponents. Multiple domains at once can put strain on them, canceling out the guaranteed hit and leaving it vulnerable to being broken by intruders. The user of the domain gets an unquantifiable power boost, “like a buff in video games”. Domains can be nulled by techniques designed to counter it such as Domain for the Weak. Domains drain a large amount of Cursed Energy, and using innate Cursed Techniques while within the domain becomes immensely difficult. The drainage of energy makes using Cursed Technique difficult to use, because the domain burns it away.

More info here.

Naoya has his own Domain Expansion, and it’s known as…

Domain Expansion: Time Cell Moon Palace


Time Cell Moon Palace is Naoya’s domain, its sure-hit effect impales the target’s neck animation frames. Any target that moves within the domain must abide by the 24 FPS rule of Projection Sorcery or they will receive grievous injuries with every move taken, it increases the precision of Naoya’s Cursed Technique and targets those inside of its domain on a cellular level. Freezing individual cells disrupts them and causes countless tiny cuts and gashes to appear over the body, causing any and all targets to be immobilised. Attempting to move while immobilised causes a random section of the body to be sliced off.

Undyne

Magic Usage

Magic is a very important thing for monsters, as their attacks are manifested by magic and they themselves are made of magic, lacking a true physical form which is why most monsters can’t withstand determination. Magic allows them to create projectiles that they can use to create bullet patterns, and lets them harm ghosts, as physical attacks can’t harm ghosts. 

Soul Manipulation

In Undertale, the main ability monsters use is to attack their opponent directly to their soul. In Undertale, the soul is considered the very essence and culmination of your very being, containing things like your compassion, will and “life force”. Certain characters can manipulate the soul direction to create certain “mechanics” for the game. Sans and Papyrus turn your soul blue and prevent you from flying, Muffet makes your soul purple and restricts your movement to three strings and Alphys makes your soul yellow and lets it shoot little pellets that destroy her and Mettaton’s attacks. Undyne can manipulate your soul too, into…

Green SOUL

Undyne can turn your soul green, which gives you a shield that allows you to block her spears if you’re fast enough to react to them. Once you’re green, you can’t run away unless she turns your SOUL back to its normal color.

Game Mechanics

Undertale is a very meta game, with game concepts being canonical to the game itself. For example, the save file is something that Frisk/Chara/Flowey actually use in the game, with Asgore and Sans being aware of resets being caused by it, and Sans and Flowey directly addressing the save file and the ability to “reset” the game, and the literal game files that characters like Flowey and Chara can manipulate and destroy.


The fight area is no exception. Like usual RPG games, when you fight you get sent to a special battlefield. For example games like Earthbound, where you get sent to a space where you’re choosing options in a box to attack an opponent which you see a first person inspective and Omori where the 4 characters are on the corners where you see their stats, and their options are decided by 4 boxes, attacking a character who is also being looked at through a first person perspective. Undertale has this too, except it’s consistently mentioned and talked about by many characters. 



It basically forces the opponent in a turn based battle system where they only get one attack while Undyne gets to use entire attack patterns that directly attack the SOUL itself. It should be noted that the SOUL isn’t needed, as Flowey died to Sans and couldn’t get past Asgore despite not having a SOUL. If you can use your abilities in the battlefield is unknown, considering Frisk has no innate abilities of their own, but if you could it would likely be in the ACT option.

Determination

Undyne is the only monster in the entire game that can use Determination outside of Asriel. While in the neutral route she shows an incomplete version of it and gets weakened as she attempts to push through, holding limited willpower to keep living, in the genocide route she uses it correctly and transforms. While Undyne doesn’t have similar determination to Frisk/Chara or Flowey, she can still use its power to come back after death, live for extended periods of time after her HP goes to 0 and become far stronger than she was before, fighting comparable to the same Frisk that had one shot her before she had used Determination.

Abilities

Vengeful Cursed Spirit Naoya

Naoya’s Vengeful Cursed Spirit form is accessible to him if he is killed without the use of Cursed Energy in it, he gains the ability to change the shape of his own body, to either resemble his human self or a grotesque head, he also retains Projection Sorcery, can now fly, and even the ability to draw in air and Cursed Energy to increase his speed via. propulsion, reaching a staggering…. Mach 3. 

Undyne the Undying

Undying is a form Undyne can unlock if she has enough determination after dying. This is usually when her entire race is at the risk of being destroyed, because when Frisk had defeated her despite not killing anyone else (Or a lot of others, it really doesn’t matter), while she had been able to continue fighting, she was getting notably slower and wasn’t able to transform.


While she doesn’t necessarily get extra abilities in this form, rather does the form more so give her abilities through the way you transform into it, she gets far stronger and faster in this form, being able to fight comparable to the same Frisk that had one shot her base form. She also gets different attack patterns, extending some that she had in her previous form.

Feats

Naoya

Overall

  • Would’ve been head of the Zen’in clan if Gojo hadn’t been sealed

  • Son of Naobito Zen’in, and his successor

  • Fought comparable to Choso, although was likely gonna lose if not for Yuta

  • Did the best against Maki after her first awakening compared to the rest of the Zen’in clan

  • After becoming a cursed spirit, “barely” had the same toughness as Hanami

Power

  • Was able to damage Choso

  • Was able to draw blood from Maki, although she easily overpowered him shortly after

    • In his cursed spirit form, was able to badly injure Maki who had grown to be on Toji’s level

Speed

  • Can move 24 movements per second

  • In his base, was eventually moving beyond subsonic speed (At least Mach 1)

    • As a Cursed Spirit, went Mach 3

  • Was able to blitz Choso and surprise Yuji, although Yuji was weakened and more focused on protecting Choso

  • Comparable to his father Naobito, who was able to blitz Cursed Womb Dagon (Mach 0.82)

    • Dagon believed that Naobito was probably faster than Jogo

Durability

  • Fought a prolonged battle with Choso, taking multiple hits from him

  • His “toughness” in his cursed spirit form is comparable to Hanami’s

  • Can take blows from Maki after her second awakening, although he clarified that it was via her not having any cursed energy

Feats

Undyne

Overall

  • Leader of the Royal Guard

  • Stated that no human has gotten past her, likely meaning that she’s beaten the rest of them

  • Papyrus’ mentor

  • Was able to outpace and kill Frisk in 4 hits

  • Has the highest stats outside of Asgore, Toriel and Mettaton NEO

  • In Undying, had the highest stats in the game outside Gaster and Asriel

Power

Her Undying form has an ATK stat of 99, which doesn’t get surpassed by any character outside of god tiers like Asriel and Gaster respectively

Speed

Durability

Scaling

Naoya

Disaster Curses

While Naoya even in his cursed spirit form wouldn’t get scaling to Jogo’s best move the Maximum Meteor (Read Before the Verdict), he should at least have some comparability to Jogo regularly. This is via his scaling to Awakened Maki, who was stated to be equal to Toji on multiple occasions who was able to easily destroy Dagon with his domain activated, who Jogo was stated to be far superior to despite not having done anything.

Even while Jogo does imply that Mahito when fully growing would’ve been above him, there’s also statements that imply that Jogo and Mahito are relative. Gege, the author of Jujutsu Kaisen said that if Kenjaku were to fight all Jogo, Hanami and Mahito, he would only struggle with Jogo and Mahito, implying that Jogo and Mahito are on a whole nother level than Hanami in their own tier (More explained in Before the Verdict)

  • Jogo and Mahito would be a tough fight for Kenjaku, who created this crater (1.35 Tons of TNT)

    • Kenjaku was able to dodge multiple piercing bloods from Choso (Mach 7)

  • Mahito created a massive crater (58.4 Tons of TNT)

  • Hanami was able to generate multiple trees (3 Kilotons of TNT)

  • Jogo was able to create a massive wave of lava (44.9 Kilotons of TNT)

  • Jogo was stated to be on the level of Sukuna that has eaten 8 to 9 fingers, which a Sukuna with 2 fingers eaten was able to travel a far distance without Megumi seeing him (Mach 47.3)

    • 2 finger Sukuna is also able to destroy part of a bridge (0.0321 Tons of TNT)

    • 2 finger Sukuna also beat up a finger bearer, who could create a massive crater (9.038 Tons of TNT)

Choso

When we first see Base Naoya fight, he encounters Choso and Yuji, and while Yuta goes to take care of Yuji, Naoya continues to fight Choso. While Naoya was going to lose, he was giving Choso a lot of trouble and was countering a good bit of Choso’s arsenal. When Naoya reincarnates into a cursed spirit he would be far above Choso.

  • Choso’s piercing blood surpasses the speed of sound (At least Mach 1)

    • His piercing blood was able to make a sonic boom (Mach 1.57)

  • Comparable to Yuji when he enters Shibuya, who before getting cursed energy was able to stagger a demon who could destroy a floor (0.027896696 Tons of TNT)

    • Before being trained by Gojo, was able to survive a blast from the finger bearer that destroyed a wall (7.65 Tons of TNT)

Maki and Toji

While Base Naoya gets beat by Maki when she finally understood his movements, his cursed spirit self was able to badly injure Maki during her first awakening and required her to undergo her second awakening to beat Naoya. During her first awakening, she had multiple statements leading to her being equal to Toji, a Gojo level threat back in the Hidden Inventory arc.


Toji was able to defeat Domain Dagon with little effort, being somewhat comparable to someone like Jogo who was considered far superior to him. Maki herself was also comparable to Yuji even after Shibuya and was able to fight 15F Sukuna, although Sukuna had 10% of his CE output and had physical limitations.

  • Toji thought that he could handle red and blue, the latter was able to create a massive crater (12.9 Tons of TNT)

  • Toji moved fast enough to blitz Ogami (Mach 0.54)

  • Toji was able to move fast enough to blitz Megumi (Mach 0.66)

  • Maki was able to intercept base Naoya moving beyond subsonic speeds (Mach 0.79)

Undyne

Frisk

Just like most monsters in the game, Undyne is much stronger than a regular LV1 Frisk, being able to considerably damage them to the point where 4 of her attacks would’ve killed Frisk. 


However, her most impressive scaling to Frisk comes in her Undying form where she fights comparable to a Frisk that should be at around LV10-11 depending how much you grinded, with 10 likely being the average level you would be at. Frisk at much lower levels was able to kill everyone else before that point, and had one shot Undyne before she had transformed. It should be noted that Frisk had only killed a hesitant Toriel and a harmless Papyrus, while this might matter for Toriel, it’s likely that you would’ve killed Papyrus anyway, despite him claiming that he would’ve blown Frisk to bits.


Mettaton

While Undyne and Mettaton haven’t had canon interactions outside of two lines before the Asriel fight and anniversary dialogue, Undyne should surpass Mettaton, having a higher ATK stat than both his base and EX form, and in Undying gets higher than even Mettaton’s NEO form.


Ruins Monsters

While the Ruins is the first portion of the game, it does have monsters that have their fair share of scaling, and Undyne should easily surpass them. Not only does she have scaling to Frisk who even at LV1 could 1-2 shot monsters in the ruins, and Undyne herself has an ATK stat far above anyone there except Toriel, but Undying easily surpasses that.


Post-Waterfall Monsters

These are the monsters you meet at the end of the game, and while you fight Undyne after these monsters, she should still be superior. Weirdly enough, she has an ATK stat above every monster after here except Mettaton NEO (explained above) and Asgore, and then surpasses them in Undying


Weaknesses

Naoya

Naoya, despite his notable combat knowledge and skill, is an incredibly arrogant and resentful misogynist, and while his Cursed Spirit form is incredibly powerful, he starts off in a weak state, he is also very confident to the point that Choso, someone who he was stomping, was able to take advantage of this and poison his blood, with it being his refusal to acknowledge Maki’s growth and worth in power that resulted in his death.

Undyne

Undyne is a very aggressive person, pushing Frisk to add heat to the pot so much that it had created an explosion that messed up her entire house. She is also somewhat easily distracted, stopping the chase down on you just to see that Sans was sleeping on the job. Is very prone to putting others lives before her own, which in the Genocide route had her get beaten in one blow, and while she can go Undying through this method, if she isn’t motivated enough her determination will fail her and she won’t transform.

Before the Verdict

Black Flash Calculation

While other blogs have Black Flash calculated at Mach 200 or even 900, we have an issue with calculating something like Black Flash. See, how Black Flash works is that, and I quote “”Black Flash”. A distortion in space, produced when cursed energy collides within 0.000001 seconds (microseconds) of the blow”. Essentially, the Black Flash timing would be at the microsecond of the hit, not the distance between when Yuji reaches Hanami.


However another issue is that microsecond timing isn’t inherently Massively Hypersonic. According to Vs Battle Wiki, all reaction/perception values rely on a meter or more distance, so if you were reacting to something with a meter distance in a microsecond that would be Massively Hypersonic, however it’s unknown when considering things that are below a meter, let alone something that doesn’t really travel. See if the Black Flash is activated right before the impact, we wouldn’t really know the distance between the fist or kick before it actually interacts with the target. It could be 0.01 meters, 0.00001 meters, 0.000000001 meters, however we would never know because we can’t visually tell when a black flash is activated and when it’s activated we wouldn’t know the distance it traveled while the black flash was being activated. 


So using Black Flash for speed is really vague, especially when you attempt to calc it, so we won’t be using it for the blog.

Who scales to Jogo's Maximum Meteor?

Well, Jogo’s maximum meteor is a tricky move to get into because Jogo only uses it once against one of the strongest characters in the series who rarely struggles in fights. 15F Sukuna scaling is somewhat questionable as well, but we think it should work out. While both Jogo and Sukuna stated that it would’ve harmed Sukuna, you would have to think about what “harmed” would mean in this context. The main objective for Jogo was to hit Sukuna once, which was very difficult due to Sukuna being far above him. Remember, Jogo was on a level while Sukuna had eaten 8 to 9 of his fingers, not 15. Jogo had believed that Maximum meteor would’ve not only hit Sukuna, but also harm him, likely to make Sukuna respect him. It wouldn’t make sense for it to mean anything more than a regular injury, as the condition was if Jogo had hit Sukuna, he would’ve killed every human in Shibuya except one. Why would Jogo deal fatal damage to Sukuna if the goal was for Sukuna to go to his side? It wouldn’t make much sense. For Naoya? In base definitely not. In base while he does fight very comparable to Choso, Choso wouldn’t be comparable to the Yuji that fought 120% Mahito or his Instant Spirit Body of Distorted Killing form, and Yuji wouldn’t even scale to ISB Mahito or Base Jogo, as Yuji needed to hit the only spot of Mahito’s body that hadn’t be covered with his form while Mahito himself was distracted on Todo’s trick. It was also stated by Gege that if Yuji hadn’t hit the last black flash that ISB would’ve ripped him to shreds. While Jogo vs Mahito is a weird discussion, it’s likely that they’re relative, as when asked if Kenjaku could manipulate Hanami, Jogo or Mahito with his cursed enemy manip, Gege stated that he would have struggled against Jogo and Mahito specifically, not even mentioning Hanami. This implies that Jogo and Mahito are both together in a tier far above Hanami, and implying that they’re somewhat relative. It wouldn’t make much sense for the struggle to be just one attack, because if it was just referring to maximum meteor, Kenjaku can just avoid it and keep slamming Jogo, or survive it since “struggled” implies that he would still win. Jogo and peak Mahito should be relative, and Yuji himself shouldn’t scale. Cursed Naoya wouldn’t scale to Maximum Meteor either. While the Maki he badly injured was stated to be equal to Toji, who destroyed Dagon while amped by his domain, you likely can’t make that correlation to Maximum Meteor, rather just Jogo himself. Not only do you have the Kenjaku statement, but it was stated by Nanami that Jogo’s aura was already far superior to Dagon previously. At most Toji would be comparable to Jogo, which Maximum Meteor is far superior to. While Maki alongside Yuji did fight Sukuna, Sukuna was at 10% CE output and his physical movements were weakened. While we don’t know by how much, it’s hard to assume that this Sukuna would scale to an attack that could harm his peak, thus Maki and Yuji fighting Sukuna shouldn’t warrant Maximum Meteor scaling. In short? Naoya shouldn’t get Maximum Meteor scaling in either form, and only has scaling to Inumaki’s small city feat and his cursed spirit form is likely Jogo tier, but not Maximum Meteor tier.

What is Vulkin’s cloud attack? Lighting or Electricity?

In Hotland, there’s a monster named Vulkin who uses projectiles from their cloud to attack Frisk. The projectiles are definitely electricity based, they look like electricity. The question is, is the electricity standard electricity, or is it actually lightning? Lightning is essentially super charged electricity that has a lot more force than conventional electricity. Lightning is also usually found in clouds, not regular electricity. Vulkin’s attack comes from a cloud she created, so wouldn’t it make sense to use what projectile usually comes out of clouds? Which is Lightning. It can be argued that electricity has been represented as the shape Vulkin’s projectiles are before as shown with Mettaton and Alphys, although this wouldn’t really matter. Again, lightning is just supercharged electricity, it wouldn’t be out of the question for it to represent lightning considering lightning is just an enhanced version of electricity. Lightning should be more logical to use overall, which pushes the Town level end of Tsunderplane rather than the Small Building one. Speaking of which…

Town level Undertale

Town level Undertale is a bit of a weird topic to get into. Admittedly, the calc for Tsunderplane was made the first day in the blog’s development, but after the blog had started, so it had honestly surprised us. Will we be using it? Let’s put it this way: Undertale has many Small Building level calcs, 5 in fact (including the electricity end for Tsunderplane) and one Building level feat that comes from Knight Knight. It is very easy to say that 7 kilotons is far too much of an outlier when compared to 0.85 tons, which is a 8,235.29 times difference. However, some can argue that inconsistencies like this wouldn’t inherently matter without a contradiction. The only contradiction with Town level Undertale is Undyne herself getting damaged by a fall. Town level has arguments for it being applicable and not being applicable. We will be leaning towards Town level being more inconsistent thus not applicable..

FTL Undertale

This might be the most controversial topic in Undertale ever since even 2015 when the game first came out. We believe that the feat is very likely FTL. While the feat is weird itself, what it is that Napstablook saw the light, which had knocked on his door (I’ll address that in a bit), and Napstablook was fast enough to close the blinds before the light had even come in. I wouldn’t compare it to simply closing the blinds when it’s too bright outside, as Napstablook had explained that he had closed the blind before it had even got in, which would makes sense considering that the chance is very low that there weren’t monsters that were in their homes out of the 11,000 monsters that had gotten absorbed by Asriel. While the light does knock on the door according to Napstablook, it shouldn’t damage the feat too heavily. Light even in real life has force, but it doesn’t harm anyone because it doesn’t have much force. However, light can have more force if it was strong enough in a fictional series. Light having force doesn’t really contradict anything. The real issue is if we would scale Napstablook and others to it. Undyne would definitely scale if we were to agree on it. Similarly to the Town level scaling, Massively Hypersonic+ to FTL is far too much of a gap, and there could be argued contradictions for the feat, such as Frisk moving slower than a mach 21 missile and moving slower than a meteor that was set on fire, however they move faster than lightning, meaning that you can argue that it’s not logical to say they couldn’t be lightspeed. We won’t use FTL, because while the feat itself may be FTL, the feat is very inconsistent compared to mach 1,055.69, or even Frisk’s Mach 1,454.5 speed using the sea tea, combined with the fact that Frisk had moved slower than Mach 5 or 21 stuff, it’s likely not applicable.


Verdict

Team Naoya

Stats

In terms of stats, it really is town level/massively hypersonic Undertale or the highway. Under the assumption we don’t use it, Naoya is a lot stronger and is decently faster too. While also being able to increase his speed indefinitely because of his cursed technique.


Undyne is very durable, but she’s not invincible. She can easily be worn down with time which is how she dies on both the Neutral Route and the Genocide Route. Naoya’s huge stat advantage on her would allow him to wear her down far faster than Frisk could. Frisk at best was comparable to Undyne, Naoya is dozens of times stronger than her.


A big deciding factor here is whether or not massively hypersonic Undertale is a valid scale. The feat itself would be more accurate with the speed of electricity rather than lightning. It generally would fit better with the multiple other electricity-based attacks shown throughout the game that are very similar visually, and Undertale already has lightning-like attacks that exist which are very different to how Vulkin’s is presented, being Asriel’s Shocker Breaker. Alongside that, lightning forms from heavy stress beneath the belly of thunderstorms and their positive/negative charges interacting in such a way that they release outbursts of energy. This happens because thunderstorms produce electromagnetic fields. Yes, volcanic lightning does exist, but that’s because of volcano eruptions altering the weather around them. There’s nothing suggesting that Vulkin is producing nearly enough energy and electromagnetism for the electricity coming out of his top to actually be lightning.


Going by this, Undyne would only be Mach 4.87 scaling from the electricity feat mentioned above, against Naoya’s mach 14.6 via scaling to a 2 finger Sukuna. That is a 3 times speed advantage in Naoya’s favor, and that is excluding the fact that Naoya can always increase his speed. So that gap would only be getting wider as the fight goes on.


However, Undyne has the ability to restrict Naoya’s movement through personal domain, an ability that will be discussed in the aforementioned. Combat and movement speed aren’t super useful when you can’t move your body. In comparison to Undyne scaling to mach 12.89 via missile reacting scaling, Naoya would be 1.13 times faster than Undyne in reaction speeds. He’d definitely be able to react and block her attacks even if his movement was restricted, and his reaction speed should increase much like his comment speed as well.


The stats aren’t the thing that make this debate interesting however. Undyne’s abilities is what makes this debate truly interesting. Naoya may be stronger and faster, but how does he fare against Undyne’s hax?

Arsenal and Abilities

A big part of Undyne’s winnable here is her personal domain. Undyne’s personal domain allows her to force her opponent into an Undertale battle. Within Undertale’s battle system, you’re not only forced to play off of a turn-based battle system, but you’re also forced to abide by four main options; ATTACK, ACT, DEFEND, and MERCY. Undertale game mechanics is something Naoya really can’t counter, and is something he will be forced to deal with. Undyne forcing her opponent's soul to be green will restrict Naoya for most of the fight, which restricts his greatest aspect; speed. However, Naoya will not be helpless under Undertale’s combat system.


In Undyne’s case, she forces her opponent to have a green soul. The green soul makes it to where those effected by it will only be able to look in all direction, but they cannot move their bodies. While Undyne occasionally turns others souls back to normal for specific attacks, most of her fight involves the green soul. The turn-based combat system of Undertale would make it to where Undyne will always get a chance to switch the soul back into green regardless of Naoya’s speed advantage. But, this isn’t a huge deal on Naoya’s end.


The green soul outright gives the person affected by it a method of defense despite their lack of mobility. Given Naoya’s speed advantage, he should fare well against the onslaught of spears Undyne will throw at him because his reaction times would be better than even the Frisk that Undyne fought. Yes, Naoya himself is not experienced with manipulating his soul directly. But, he’s not only one of the best sorcerers of his generation, but he would at minimum have some control over his soul.


 Undyne can do a form of dura neg on Naoya given all of her attacks will directly be targeting his soul, and assuming Naoya can’t subconsciously defend his soul like Nanami can, that could be a huge disadvantage. However, souls in Jujutsu Kaisen are described by Kenjaku as being equal to the body; they coexist. Naoya’s soul should be as durable as his body, so regardless if Undyne’s attacks can damage the soul, his soul should be durable enough to tank most of the attacks she can throw out.


And it’s not like Naoya will be completely restricted within the personal domain. There's no evidence for the ACT button to only allow actions that the player is allowed to choose against that specific monster. They aren’t linear, they can be changed to do different things which is shown many times throughout the game. Really, the only difference between Naoya under Undertale battle mechanics and under normal battle conditions is having to deal with restricted mobility and a turn-based battle system. He should realistically be able to use all of his abilities as he wants to via ACT.


Naoya’s domain is a huge hitter against Undyne. It making all attacks hit those effected will make it to where Undyne will be forced to tank it. Undyne’s personal domain would not overwrite Naota’s domain expansion. In Undertale, it has never been shown to have its battle domains be forced to fight against eachother. But it has been shown in Jujutsu Kaisen, and within Jujutsu Kaisen, domains can coexist with eachother. Domains won’t overwrite the other unless one is cast before the other, but otherwise, they’ll simply coexist with eachother and their effects will be present simultaneously. This means that, no matter what happens here, Naoya should be able to get his domain off without much of any trouble, as it would simply coexist with Undyne’s personal domain.

Tertiary Factors

There’s a few extra notes at the end here before we get to the conclusion. The major point of contention here, barring the obvious, is their survivability.


Undyne is known for being determined and always fighting on. She can tank a huge amount of punishment, but will always get back up anyway, to the point she continued to the right as her body was melting away. There is a limit to this though, too much damage will overwhelm her determination and cause her body to melt much like other monsters subjected to determination. Even the Undying, a state that literally means “never dying”, will be worn down eventually.


In comparison, Naoya would unironically be more survivable. He’s already more durable naturally through raw stats, and he will be guaranteed to escalate through his states no matter what Undyne does. Killing Naoya as a Jujutsu Sorcerer will only allow him to become a Cursed Womb, as Undyne lacks any attacks that utilize Cursed Energy.

Conclusion


“The one who stands with them …IS ME!!!!”

Advantages:

  • Much stronger than Undyne.

  • Far more durable.

  • …But against proper domains, attacks that neutralise them are only used to hope to buy time.

  • His regeneration could possibly allow him to outlast Undyne.

  • His Domain Expansion attacks on a cellular level and passively disrupts the cellular structure at the slightest movement, giving him a reliable one-shot option, as all attacks are considered lethal.

  • Possibly superior in hand-to-hand, being able to predict his opponent’s move and counter it accordingly.

  • The body and soul being equal in Jujutsu Kaisen gives him a defense against Undyne targeting his soul.

Disadvantages:

  • His Domain’s sure hit could be neutralized for a little while…

  • Physically slower.

  • Undyne being able to harm the soul would allow her to deal damage Naoya cannot heal from.

  • Theoretically, one could argue his Domain is weaker.

  • Mach 3.

  • Actual sexist bruh.

Overall, Naoya had all of the tools he needed to win in this battle of selfishness and selflessness. He was significantly stronger, far more durable, faster, had more ways to sustain himself over the course of the fight, could deal with Undyne’s hax, and had hax that Undyne could not properly compete with. Ultimately, while a heart of gold and a will to protect your people will alway be admirable, sometimes mere determination will fall short against the might of raw power.


The winner is… Naoya Zenin!

Verdict

Team Undyne

Stats

Let’s start with Undyne’s AP, since they’re easier to go through. Undyne even in base scales to many Small Building level feats. She scales to Frisk who can one shot walls and tank meteors falling on them which was calculated at 0.022170283384321 and 0.021 Tons of TNT respectively and Mettaton who in his base form can break through a metal wall which was calculated at 0.12957988154 Tons of TNT and in his EX form which was able to kick at such high speeds that his Kinetic Energy was calculated to 0.04476 Tons of TNT. Very nice for consistency, with base Mettaton’s wall busting almost reaching building level.


However, Undertale does have a building level feat that Undyne should reliably scale to. Knight Knight, a side monster in the CORE that has inferior ATK stats to Undyne herself was able to create a moon, which would’ve required the energy of 0.85 Tons of TNT to perform. While Frisk wouldn’t scale to this as they tanked the one meteor which was calculated far lower, monsters who have higher ATK stats should scale considering ATK stats consider your physical and magical capabilities, so if Knight Knight’s peak energy is 0.85 Tons, then so should Undyne’s. She does scale to Tsunderplane who with speeds we’ll talk about with a bit has a Town level Kinetic Energy calc. While we found no issues with the calc or feat, we believe that it is not applicable to stats and is moreso inconsistent with the building level feats of Undertale. Undying doesn’t get a higher tier.


Now onto Naoya’s AP. Base Naoya is really nothing special, however he still has far superior AP to Undyne. Naoya fought toe to toe with Choso, who was able to fight comparable and even beat Yuji before he had fought Mahito who all the way back in Season 1 (Chapter 7 for manga readers) was able to get up from an attack that completely destroyed a wall that was calculated at 7.65 Tons of TNT. This would make Naoya even in base 8.9 times stronger than Undyne. Then there’s Cursed Naoya, who was far stronger than before. Most of his impressive stuff comes from scaling to Disaster Curses like Hanami and Jogo. While Hanami is more blatant, as it’s stated that he’s “barely” comparable to Hanami in toughness, which would imply some relatively, you would have to pull some strings for him scaling to Jogo.


Jogo scaling is really weird. When Gege went over Hanami vs Yuji and Todo, he had stated that while Jogo was technically stronger due to nature advantage, that he would’ve died “instantly” if he took the same amount of blows Hanami had taken, however Jogo himself claimed that he would have dodged all of them. Jogo is somewhat considered more on the fast side, we’ve seen him run from far distances as he did when he found out that someone was trying to revive Sukuna, and Jogo was Dagon’s reference to speed, as when seeing Naobito’s speed he instantly jumped to Jogo for a comparison, so Jogo’s boast could’ve been true. This is somewhat consistent when Gege had gone over how Kenjaku vs Jogo, Mahito or Dagon would’ve gone if he 1v1’d any of them. He completely disregarded Hanami, and said that only Jogo and Mahito would’ve given him trouble. This implies that both Jogo and Mahito are both on a different level than Hanami, and if you wanna push it Dagon too. 


Naoya’s only method of scaling to Jogo outside of Hanami is through Maki. Although the method of scaling in itself is also a bit weird. While during her first awakening, it is consistently stated that Maki had reached Toji’s level, this likely refers to how she had seemingly perfected her body and became free of Cursed Energy. While she did free herself from CE altogether due to her bond with Mai, she hadn’t perfected her body which was why she had her 2nd awakening. Her 2nd awakening was stated to also be equal to Toji, so it’s more likely that she was actually equal to Toji when she had her 2nd awakening… which is also when Naoya couldn’t catch her and she casually knocked him away. While Naoya does come out of this seemingly unscaved, he states that this is because she didn’t have any cursed energy, which it is consistent that having no cursed energy meant you couldn’t harm cursed spirits. You could make the argument that Maki in her 1st awakening had been somewhat close to Toji’s level, but she actually became Toji’s level when she had gotten her 2nd awakening, and that was when Maki had gotten the clear upperhand on Naoya. It doesn’t matter either way though. Naoya even without scaling to Jogo is still 3 kilotons, which is 3,488.37 times stronger than Undyne in both of her forms. Although speed is a different story.


We’ll start with Naoya for this one. Naoya has a ton of Mach feats. He’s comparable to Choso’s piercing blood which caps at Mach 1.57, likely being superior to 2F Sukuna’s travel speed which was calculated at Mach 14.2. As explained before, with Black Flash being unusable for Naoya, this would be the highest speed feat applicable even though realistically he caps at Mach 3 ong......


Now for Undyne, as explained in Before the Verdict, Vulkin’s electrical attacks should represent lighting more than it should represent electricity. Both Frisk and Tsunderplane have speeds exceeding Vulkin’s lighting, being calculated at both Mach 662.39 and Mach 1055.69 respectively. This would easily make Undyne’s top speed 45.37 to 72.31 times faster than Naoya, which while not as big of a gap as AP is still very impressive.

Powers and Abilities

Both of them have very impressive abilities in their own right, so we’ll go over both to the best of our abilities. Ironically enough, this fight would be a domain battle. As talked about in the abilities section, Undertale’s game mechanics being canon is very consistent, and thus should be applicable in a fight. It should be very easy to assume that Undyne would get hers first. Unlike Naoya’s domain which was a last second attack, Undertale domains happen the second the fight starts no matter how far apart you are. The argument would more so be how Naoya would work around Undyne’s domain first before we talk about Naoya’s.


The only thing vague about Undyne’s domain is if it negates your abilities. What I mean by this is, the domain itself limits the options you can do. If removing the option to use Cursed Techniques is one of them is unknown, but if it is something that monsters themselves can control similarly to their stats and battle boxes, then it’s very unlikely that Undyne would leave his Cursed Techniques for him, especially when he already has a shield. Unfortunately for Undyne though, Naoya gets his turn first. Assuming the fight is similar to Frisk’s fight with Undyne, all Naoya would be able to do is challenge her, which due to his nature he would be very likely to.


In the domain Undyne has many advantages. The first is her Soul Manipulation. While Jujutsu Kaisen characters like Mahito and Yuji have soul manipulation resistance, it’s clarified that this is only because they are knowledgeable on the shape of one's soul, thus they could resist attacks dealt TO the soul. There are rare causes like Nanami however, who was able to resist Idle Transfiguration despite being unaware of the shape of one’s soul. However it’s unreasonable to assume that Naoya can do this too, especially if you want to compare directly attacking the soul to resistance to transmutation of the soul itself. If you really want to go there, you can argue that resisting actual attacks that damage the soul is different from trying to transmute the soul.


Undyne turning Naoya’s soul green is very useful in the fight, as not only does it shorten his mobility, but it forces him to stand in place and block multiple attacks which move 10.56 times faster than him and durability negates him. If Naoya reincarnates into a cursed spirit, it would actually give him a neat amount of abilities. Such as the ability to regenerate from half of his body completely taken out and being unaffected by physical attacks. However, Soul Manipulation would counter both of these.


With the obvious notion that spiritual attacks don’t affect you physically, thus they wouldn’t apply to this negation, JJK regen likely can’t regenerate from soul attacks. If cursed spirit regeneration is anything like RCT, as RCT couldn’t heal from soul manipulation which was stated by Jogo, then they couldn’t either. There are other arguments too, like how one of the ways to kill Cursed spirits is through soul splitter, which would actually be the same as Undyne’s spears in a way, and spirits outside of Mahito haven’t been shown to regenerate on that level, so Soul Manipulation should be a perfect counter to Naoya’s new abilities through his cursed spirit form.

Tertiary Factors

It’s unknown to know who is more skilled. They’re skilled in different things, with Undyne being more skilled in being a swordswoman and being more skilled in his own techniques. They both have similar experience, training since they were kids, however it’s very likely that Naoya had pushed himself harder than Undyne ever has. Zen’in members were trained to be tough alongside their members, with Naoya being so prideful that he thought he could be the leader of them, it’s very likely that he was pushed even harder than Undyne. This is all we could mention for tertiary factors


There is one thing we would like to address. There is one specific argument that two of the Undyne supporters have a disagreement on, and it’s if Undying is applicable in the debate itself. One side can argue that Undying is far too specific in context to work here, as Undying only worked for Undyne when she was determined enough to stop a threat that was going to destroy all of monster kind, however if you leave one monster alive before meeting Undyne, she will fail her determination which is addressed by the game itself, However, you can make the argument that Naoya is seemingly enough of a threat with Undyne having no prior knowledge on Naoya combined with his jerkish personality that Undyne will be motivated enough to stay up. We’ll personally go with Undying not being applicable, however Undyne does have a lesser form of it.


Unfortunately however, Undyne’s inferior form of Undying would end up in a stalemate if it were to be put into effect. Undyne has a blatant time limit on it, and while it would be more likely for her to kill Naoya since she can live for a good bit despite how much damage she takes, she would eventually die even after she kills Naoya, so it would be a stalemate at worst. However, we believe that Undyne has enough stuff to prevent Naoya from putting her into that situation.

Conclusion

    Advantages:

  • Far faster than both of Naoya's forms

  • No evidence to suggest Naoya understand the shape of one’s soul, so he likely wouldn’t have a resistance to Soul Manipulation

  • Soul Manipulation and Spears could likely bypass Naoya’s physicality negation and Regeneration as a cursed spirit

  • Naoya has to counter Undyne's domain, and would be forced into Undertale’s battle system…

  • Despite not having Undying, she can continue the fight and give herself a better chance at fighting no matter how much damage she takes per hit…

  • Green soul makes it where Naoya can’t move around, and if Naoya were to taunt Undyne she would make her attacks harder to block

  • Actually ended with what she wanted

  • The most badass character in the series

   Disadvantages:

  • Far weaker than his base even using Undying

  • Slower than Naoya in her base without using Lightning ends

  • …However if he were to land a domain Undyne would likely be killed by it

  • Undying is very unlikely to come out via context of the fight

  • …Although whether she kills Naoya or not during this period, Undyne will eventually die, making it a stalemate at most in this situation.

  • Only UT character who couldn’t control Determination

  • Genuine pain to fight, harder than Sans perhaps?


Both characters were very impressive in their own right, with Naoya having a major AP advantage due to both early Yuji scaling and Hanami scaling and being able to put Undyne in scenarios that would force a stalemate. However, Undyne was just far too fast for Naoya to hit, and she had way too many abilities at her disposal for Naoya to deal with. She practically shut down Naoya’s most useful abilities outside of his domain with Soul Manipulation, and kept him in place with a combination of her domain and changing Naoya’s soul to green. Even though Undyne was the underdog, she ended up being determined enough to push herself to spear the win. The winner... is Undyne.

Conclusion

Naoya Zenin (4) - Snaggle, TheDerpyPotato, Sr-Fish, Cyk


Undyne (6) -  ๐“‘๐“ช๐“ญ๐“ฝ๐“ฒ๐“ถ๐“ฎ32, hade, Sand., Chris, Rei, LwqwydUuz
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